Believe it or not, I was challenged to return to my old life this very day! I was challenged to return to the hateful, condemning atmosphere of the thinking I was able to escape from just a few years ago. I am thankful of so many taking the opportunity to visit http://www.housetohouse.com/ and discover for themselves one of the most condemning organizations still pushing pattern over Christ in our country today.
If you want to know the proper protocols I spoke of in an earlier blog, just visit the site and they will tell you everything you need to do in order to be the proper "non-effective" Christian. If you grew up in the church, you will see all of the creativity man has done with the bible to support the vain worship of which I was once part.
An amazing thing to consider if you are reading your own bible, is how much emphasis is placed on following the appropriate form and so little on leading the Christian life. Taking the challenge to read your bible, you will discover the emphasis in the New Testament is placed on righteous living. In fact, I would guess (without counting) the information God gives us concerning "corporate worship" would probably not equal the word count of half a blog statement. To think I used to focus on being right in front of God by what took place in a building.
I noticed in one spot that singing during communion was not appropriate (I would have put sinful but while believing it is their belief, I am not going back to the site to see if it was actually stated)! While we have not done that in a while, I would challenge anyone to find anything in the bible but total silence on this topic. Does silence permit? No! Does silence forbid? No! We have been down this road before but one thing is certain, at least in my mind that teaching something as being biblical which is not stated in the bible is nothing more than telling a lie. Is telling a lie sinful? YOU BET!
I have quoted below some comments made about clapping (for your entertainment)!
There is no Bible authority for clapping in worship, either in time as part of the singing, or in the form of applause.Clapping during singing is a form of percussive accompaniment. What is the difference between striking our hands together and striking a drum with our hands? Musically speaking - nothing. The only accompaniment for our singing is to come from the heart (Ephesians 5:19). Also, God is not worshiped with men's hands (Acts 17:25).Clapping as applause brings glory and recognition to men, and is not directed toward God. All worship and praise is to be directed toward God. Do they clap when the preacher says something funny or something with which they agree? Will they clap when the song leader does a good job? Will they clap when someone says a good prayer? And what about those for whom no clapping is done? Will they think their worship is inferior or unacceptable because it didn't warrant applause?Why not let God reward us for our deeds like the Bible says (Colossians 3:23-24)? Worship is a time to focus our attention and affection upon God, not men. Worship is a time to give reverence and glory to God, not men.
One thing I wanted to point out is the manipulation done by this group to make clapping appear sinful. I examined Acts 17:25 in my bible and had to go online and find the bible using the words necessary to support their claim. I should have guessed they were basically a KJV only crowd and according to their own claims, they are now using the NKJV because the KJV is being phased out. Most of the bibles I viewed said God does not need to be served by human hands and in context, I agree (read for yourself). I did notice they basically condemned the NIV as nothing more than a paraphrase of what God said!
"I will show you the verse expressly forbidding using instruments in worship when you show me the verse expressly forbidding the worship of the Devil" is another statement by this group showing their lack of understanding. The tactic of this statement implies the true meaning of their understanding and the fallacy by which they exist in their thinking. They truly understand the bible is silent but rather than allow God silence, they must create law for God. This does nothing more than elevate themselves to a position equal with God; one I will not do for myself any longer. The really sad thing in my life is that I have enough problems with the sinful nature and if God is truly out their trying to catch me being sinful, He doesn't have to look to something of a silent nature to make me pay for not being "good enough." In fact, we can use their example of "playing God" and set traps for our children, whipping them when they don't meet our hidden expectations.
I am reminded of a story where the dad in the family is having a birthday and when asked what he would like for his birthday, he says that he would like a fountain pen with his name on the pen. The wife goes with the small child and purchases the exact pen which had been circled by dad in the catalog. When they get home the little child gets the wrapping paper and to the best of her ability wraps the package drawing a pretty picture of the family on the outside. She then begs mom to make a cake for dad and let her decorate it for dad. What a wonderful day it is for her as she takes the cake and puts the candles on the cake. Written in sprinkles are the words "I love my daddy!" Dad gets home and having kicked off his shoes, she takes the present to him. As he is opening the present, she slips to the side and picks up her special cake to show him. After opening the present, he notices her come to him with the cake and you won't believe it! He takes the cake and screams at his little daughter that she is a wicked child as he throws the cake to the floor. "I never asked you for this but only the pen. I am going for a switch and when I get back you will understand how disobedient you have been."
If this is your view of our heavenly father, my heart aches for you and yet, this seems to clearly be the view taken by those managing the House to House project when regarding things left unsaid by God.
My heart ached as I was seeing myself in so much of what was written on their website. I was once like this and if you want to know the full extent of my hatrid towards those I was trying to reach with the gospel message, then I would encourage you to visit their site. http://www.housetohouse.com/
I am thankful to God of so many in our group who went to the site and discovered for themselves the creativity of men who place themselves equal to God in setting traps for others. I am also greatful to see the "last" efforts these men make to keep hold of their existence because the church of my youth, focused on a tradition of pattern is slowly coming to an end as the church of our Lord is thriving all around us with a focus on the Savior.
I am thankful to the strength and passion of our youth who took the challenge to look at this material for themselves and in my view, you should be placed with the great men of faith in Hebrews for the faith you have in Jesus! I would encourage you to remain strong in your faith and love as you face those who seem to be working for Satan to shut your strong faith down. I am fully aware of your ability to reach your friends with the gospel message and as Paul told Timothy, you can't allow people like this to look down at you because of your age.
I will pray tonight for all to read their bibles more closely and realize the message of the gospel is about our Savior and not about those things the Pharisees of our day would create for our observance.
May God bless all of us with eyes to see and ears to hear the message of Jesus apposed to the message of MAN!
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Hey Mike, where did you see that stuff about singing during communion and hand clapping? I looked all over their site and couldn't find it.
ReplyDelete(Mike Flanagan )mikewflanagan@hotmail.com
Mike,
ReplyDeleteIt is in their question and answer section found when you click on some of the categories on the left. From the homepage, go to questions and then you will see the topics of discussion to the left.Under worship, the question is Is it wrong to sing during the Lord's Supper? Looking a bit further down the page, you will see What about clapping in worship? One topic just seems to lead to another and before long, I was just sick of reading from a mind not only chained to tradition as the will of God but wrapped up, gagged and blindfolded!
Ok, I see it.
ReplyDeleteI personally am done with "hate" Christianity. For the last 50 years, we have isolated ourselves with our self righteousness and I wonder how many people never got to hear the pure gospel because we were so busy serving them our own gospel. I now toss out anything that comes to me that seethes hate, discord and division as I know all of those are spoken of in His Word.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the "silent" issues...I will no longer teach them as "Bible" truths. There are definite truths in the Bible...there is ONE true God, Jesus is the ONLY way to Him, all men have sinned, etc...there is way too much in the Bible that is truth to focus our time and attention on the things we have made law...like music preference, clapping, how to do the Lord's supper, what day of the week to worship and on and on.
Let's teach people about Christ...He is truly enough.
Ronna,
ReplyDeleteYou are a blessing to all of us and if enough of us start pushing Jesus as who we want to become, the transformation in our lives will clearly show others the message God wants delivered! Confession is a good thing and as I take a look at myself and see what used to rule my life,I am now passionate to keep others from being trapped by the system. I think it is always important to remember that I know of no one who would challenge the heart of any of these people. When we are blinded by the rituals of our past, I know from experience we just can't see the truth behind (absent) from what we believe. When we start to come out of our bondage, we have the fear come into our hearts because we have been told so for so long now that we will probably fail and be condemned for the slightest variance from the will of God. Let us all hold fast to Jesus and as we begin to look more like Him, those who see us will be drawn to Him instead of being drawn to "our way of doing things."
Mike,
ReplyDeleteIt didn't take me long on housetohouse.com to see the bondage of these people. So, if we don't believe like they, then we're wrong. I think we see God as the Almighty. They perceive him more as a idol that fits perfectly in their little ideal box and use their interpretation of scripture to discredit everyone outside their group. Sounds like a cult to me!
RD,
ReplyDeleteYes, and in fact that is why my heritage was referred to as a cult for a long time. We took what the bible said and adjusted it to fit our personal desires. Oddly enough, when we are concerned about our own personal desires, we are probably not focused on doing the will of God but rather the will of "my earthly father!"
WOW RD (I don't really know what name would be best here LOL) the idol statement really stood out to me, that fits the picture in my head. God is made into an idol like all the hundreds of other idols. as for the cult part I know people that have looked into the things the "Church of Christ" (I'm not talking about united church of christ) and consider us a cult. To everyone this wasn't mentioned in my Dad's article, but Prom was also put in the category of Sin. I have tested that to see how many people it would reach. NO one would pay any mind to it, neither would I. I know for one that many friends and I went to Prom and remained sinless to that standpoint and we even danced. Good posts by all of yall. Mrs. Ronna you still inspire me with your Peace throughout everything going on, I respect that (I'm not talking about you not saying anything but you work for the Message of Christ and you declare that)Dad Love you, good post, Thank you for being a srength for this family and standing up for everyone, the youth and me.
ReplyDeleteLindsay,
ReplyDeleteYou and the youth group are awesome. You truly understand the concept of leadership with your lives serving others and have set an example for all of us "old folks." I want to join y'all on your trash walk this year and follow your lead. You are right about Ronna and I hope you and all of your friends will look around and see how many other servants we have working diligently in service to others. I long for a day when the "I want" category of people might cease to exist and an attitude of "how can I help you" will be born.
Hey Mike, this is not aimed at you, but more at the collective conversations buzzing around that I have been hearing lately.
ReplyDeleteI have a concern about the tone of some of the things I'm hearing and reading, and it's not directly related to doctrine or what is or isn't permitted.
I think it is a blessing to realize the liberty and grace that God gives to us, and to understand the difference between tradition and God's will. However, being blessed with a true understanding also requires that we have tolerance for those who study, and pray, and do their best to understand what God wants, but have a different understanding for us. That tolerance goes both ways, for example people who feel strongly that we should not clap while singing should love and respect the people who feel like we should be able to clap while singing, and vice versa.
I went to the housetohouse website and reviewed most of the material, and the vast majority of it I believe to be correct. I did find some places where the writer strayed into gray areas/disputable matters and presented his opinion as if it were a fact. To their defense none of these mistakes occurred with anything that would be considered a matter of salvation. I have no doubt with the time and effort spent on that website that we have a prayerful, hard studying, hard working person trying to put that website together to the best of their ability with the understanding that they have of God's will. To label those efforts as hateful or condemning, in an odd way to me is hateful and condemning on our part. When our differences are over gray areas/disputable matters, I think it is wrong for us to condemn them just the same as it would be wrong for them to condemn us for having a different understanding after praying, studying, and searching God's will. Also remember, this website didn't condemn anyone, they merely stated a belief that they held. They did not follow up and say if you clap your hands and have instrumental music you will go to Hell. I think it is wrong for us to look at someone else's ministry, who studies, prays, and works to the best of their ability and understanding to do God's will and characterize it as hateful, just because they understand some of the minor details differently than we do.
Romans 14
verse 1....accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.....clearly instrumental music, or hand clapping, and some of the other issues I would call disputable/gray area matters that are certainly not matters of salvation.
verse 22...So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves......what do we gain by speaking out or campaigning for a liberty that we believe we have, when someone else does not believe it? If you believe you have it...then you do and that is between you and God. Our job is not to convince our brother to think like we do on disputable gray matters. For matters of salvation, we should fight with no compromise. If we try to convince a brother to think like we do on one of these gray matters, we introduce a potentially large problem.
Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin..... Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see (Hebrews 11:1). A disputable matter is something that we can't really be certain of. We can have a strong opinion, but you can never with certainty say it is a black and white issue. This certainly seems to apply with clapping, and even instrumental music. The Bible never says we can't do it, and it doesn't provide any examples of that type of worship. This brings it squarely into the realm of common sense/judgement/disputable matters that should be kept between you and God, not forced on others. Anything that doesn't come from faith is sin, so clapping when you're not really comfortable with it, for you would be a sin. In the same way, if you feel compelled to clap and you believe God requires it, for you it would be a sin not to clap. But with love and tolerance neither person should be annoyed with the beliefs of the other.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ....this verse tells me that on matters like these, we study, pray, and follow our beliefs and faith, while allowings others to do the same, even if they have a different understanding or conclusion.
Whew.....that's a lot of words! My biggest concern for our church is not whether or not we grasp the full amount of liberty, freedom, or flexibility in worship that God will allow.
My biggest concern is not that we are 100% accurate in doctrine 100% of the time. God explains that humans fail and sin, and that's our nature. God sent Jesus to die on the cross to cover those sins, so we are blameless in God's sight. To me the same conclusion can be applied to the church. The church is made of individual people who sometimes fail and sin. That means sometimes the church will fail, sin, and make mistakes. That's ok, because God said so! We will stumble and fall, but God is able to make us stand and we will find our way as long as we continue to pray, study, and try to do God's will.
My biggest concern is that we sometimes become distracted by small issues, personal disagreements, disputable matters, and the thorns of life and fail to do our primary job which is to seek and save the lost. If we spend all of our time and energy trying to get every individual in the church to agree with us, we will have no time for ministry, evangelism, or the good works that God gives us the opportunity to do.
Getting worship "right" has value and is something we should try to do, but being right is not a ministry.
Making sure we take full advantage of the freedom and liberty that God gives us, is not a ministry.
When Paul and Timothy were getting ready for mission work, they had a big discussion about circumcision, and the leaders of the church came to the conclusion that circumcision was not required. However, when Timothy prepared for his mission, the vast majority of the people he was going to try to reach, believed that circumcision was a requirement. In a huge show of love and sacrifice, Timothy got circumcised (as an adult) knowing that it was unnecessary and incredibly painful so that he would have a better chance of reaching the lost.
1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
Are we willing today to make the same sacrifices to further God's will? If we were going to have a Bible study with a Biker, or punk rocker, or whatever would you be willing to grow a beard, get some tattoos, or several body piercings just so they would be more likely to listen to what you have to say? How silly would it seem looking back that clapping, or not clapping, or any other disputable/gray area disagreement would prevent us from working as a group to further God's will?
Unity has nothing to do with everyone agreeing with each other on every detail of doctrine, unity has to do with a common purpose of seeking and saving the lost.
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
In closing, don't take it personally! If I disagree with you, it's only because you're wrong ....just kidding, I couldn't be serious for that many words in a row!
Mike Flanagan (mikewflanagan@hotmail.com)
Mike F., I agree, but if someone is calling these “grey matters” sin, it will become an issue. If we do have a new Christian, or a “fringe” Christian attending and they clap during a song or raise their hands to God, we should not have this called sin. We can not allow these young Christian to be exposed to these comments or attitudes and expect to keep them interested in God. Like you I was raised in the C of C and I do understand all of the arguments of both sides of these debates. I was taught that only the C of C would be saved and every other denomination on earth was lost because we had the only non-denominational church still in existence. If we continue to teach this attitude some will be saved, but how many will be lost because we will not accept them. I don’t think God has a big closet in heaven for all the C of C members to stay separate. We need to start believing what Jesus taught in John 4:21-24
ReplyDelete21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Boy, oh boy, Looks like a like of scripture to back up something. The meaning is lost in many words. I too grew up in the Church of Christ and have experienced the bondage. The Lords Supper, Baptism, the Power of the Holy Spirit. Instead of reading the bible, allow the Holy Spirit to instruct. The armor we build around us must be removed before we can receive.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I say, we cannot save anyone, but it is diffucult to deliver a message when the message is so different; for example, Lord's Supper, Baptism and Salvation.
"Making sure we take full advantage of the freedom and liberty that God gives us, is not a ministry." I would disagree, it's a ministry like any other as it directs us to a closer walk with God, for at least me.
RD & Clay,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate both of you so much. I don't know where any of this will lead if any where. All I do know is that for 50 years of my life no one really ever seemed to tell anyone what they believed because they would be an outcast. One of the great lines of my heritage you will recognize is that the bible is so clear anyone can get it and yet we have been the ones to muddy the water in so many areas as we attempted to discover every small detail about every thing coming to mind. While discussion on any variety of topics might be fun and educational, it is important not to allow our belief to become the law of God. Oddly enough, God's people have always been fond of bondage!
RD said,
ReplyDeleteInstead of reading the Bible, allow the Holy Spirit to instruct...
Mike Says:
that is very, very mis-guided. Since you don't want lots of scripture to back things up, rest assured I am familiar with the bulk of it, and the Bible is one way that God communicates with us and guides us. I also believe the Holy Spirit can guide us as well. But choosing one, over the other, is tragically mis-guided.
Ministry is something that further's God's will, to the benefit of others.
Mike Said, "Making sure we take full advantage of the freedom and liberty that God gives us, is not a ministry."
RD said, I would disagree, it's a ministry like any other as it directs us to a closer walk with God, for at least me.
Mike says:
Seeking a closer relationsip with God is something every Christian should do. If you love someone, you want to be with them. However, I would not consider something so inwardly focused as a ministry. A good relationship with God should compel us to get involved with ministry, helping others, sharing the word, helping to lead others to God.
Worship is something we give to God. True enough, done properly it makes us feel great too! However, we are not the focus or point of worship.